Why Aren't They Talking About Ho Yeow Sun?
The lack of publicity in Singapore about homegirl Ho Yeow Sun, popularly known as Sun (quite aptly, since she is bright and cheery), baffles me.
I first noticed this young lady when I was working as Editor-In-Chief of ELLE magazine in Singapore. At that job, I didn't get to go out much and the only SUN I got was the few rays that came streaming in my office in the morning, killing my cactus.
But my intrepid young reporter Michelle Bong pointed out to me one day that there was this cute Chinese pop singer who was also a pastor. We were at the time planning for our 2001 National Day issue, always a big song and dance and we tried to feature as many Singaporeans who were making waves (and who looked good) as possible.
"How about the singing pastor?" asked MJB (her middle name escapes my mind now but that's what we call her)
She waves an album cover at me. What a wholesome looking lass. "She's a PASTOR?"
"Yah, got belly button showing and all."
"Okay, done."
I had nothing against belly buttons showing, and I still don't have anything against it. The only time I object to belly buttons in my face is when I have to look for them between two folds of fat. Which is why you won't be seeing mine anytime soon. But this Ho Yeow Sun, she's pert and cute as a button. Some people think she's lian but I never had a problem with lians ? Fann Wong is also very lian but she's cool to me. If you speak Mandarin then you can be lian. If you only speak English and look lian THEN got problem.
The two years following that were something else! Her albums sold a lot of copies, and she started appearing in magazines, newspapers etc. Of course, MEDIA being media (MEDIA is short for "Mean Egotistical Diatribe-Inscribing A******* ? I know, I was one/am a recovering one).
She's materialistic lah, she's very "unholy" lah, her congregation was forced to buy her album so that she could get a number one spot in the charts lah, she wears slutty outfits lah ... you name it. It started with one Her World article I read where she apparently flaunted her Prada bag et al and the worst of it was probably the article slamming her for her red Armani gown.
See, being a person in the media has its advantages. You don't believe 90% of what you read in the papers. The other 10% is just there to make you laugh.
Poor girl got ripped to shreds. Even my Christian friends (and I was not Christian yet) said, "She's asking for it lor." I heard of people leaving City Harvest because of the hoohah. I honestly didn't see the big deal. God's not stupid. If she was a fake He'd fix her.
I prayed for her, mostly for her to wise up to the Things Not To Do When The Media Are Looking.
The stupid thing about the whole business was that the REAL stories were completely ignored!
* DAVID FOSTER was her producer!!! She was in Hollywood wearing Armani because HE BROUGHT HER! Now THAT'S a story! How many Singaporeans have caught the eye of a legendary music producer?
* ARMANI sponsored her dress! How many Singaporeans get Armani to sponsor their dress in HOLLYWOOD?! Maybe Fann Wong only!
* The girl was obviously making it big! Why run a story about a freaking DRESS and a bit of cleavage (not as if you haven't seen any -- okay maybe just not on a Pastor but she IS a woman, and a nice-looking one at that). I searched and searched but there was no story on HER SUCCESS!
Baffling!
These days the media's calmed down a little over her. But still there's a bit of a boycott, if I might call it that.
Last year she hit the number one spot on the Billboard Dance Charts (Top 25), knocking off Destiny's Child even. Not just that but she had THREE CONSECUTIVE NUMBER ONES on the Billboard Dance Charts!!! Good grief, that's unheard of for any Singaporean!
The report in the Straits Times was a tiny couple of paras in Life.
But when another Singaporean climbs (YET AGAIN) Mount Everest, it's full colour picture in the News section, Front page, Page 3 or front of Home News.
Something's not right.
My husband asked me yesterday "How come Ho Yeow Sun's making it so huge overseas and here you hardly hear about her?"
I don't have an answer, or rather, I'm AFRAID to answer! Could it be that our multi-religious society "fail" to see her as a talented singer because they'd rather not deal? Could it be that they have beaten her up so badly in the press before it seems like a reversal of position for them to do any decent story on her? Do I really want to read about a lard-eating cardiologist who obviously has no respect for his own body when I could be learning more about this woman who is putting Singapore on the map AND SINGAPORE CHOOSES NOT TO NOTICE?!
Aiyoh. In my mother's (bless her soul) words, this is very "chek ark".
I had the honour of meeting Sun because of the WMD anti-child sex tourism project I began. She donated $10,000 of her (and a few friends') money to the cause! She also agreed to have her photo taken as part of a celebrity T-shirt drive that begins 7 July.
Right now she is in LA completing a Praise & Worship album that City Harvest is putting out. It will be TRES COOL -- I know this because I've heard the songs and the treatment, and I am a former music editor of ETC magazine and I know cool when I hear it (HAHAHAHA). I definitely am buying it, no pastor needs to force me to put down money for it.
She has also become the new VON DUTCH chick. If you need to know what Von Dutch is, WHAT ARE YOU DOING READING MY BLOG?! Just head out your door, down the street and it will be less than 10 minutes before you see a Von Dutch bag/T-shirt/skirt. It is only the hippest surf brand in California, and Madonna and Halle Berry are also in the Von Dutch Hall of Fame. If you don't think that's cool for a Singaporean, something is majorly wrong with you.
In a sense, I'm GLAD local press don't give Sun due credit. It makes her seem so much cooler to me. It's like Blogging: by the time the Singapore press runs a story, YOU KNOW YOU ARE MAINSTREAM! YIKES!!!! To be in the same category as Phua Chu Kang!!!! ARGH!!!!
She's about to hit the major big time. Her 4th single comes out this month in the US, and she has signed an album deal in LA and will be recording there. The album is due out next Feb. I'm not a dance music fan, but I'm sure she will do a great job. She's got some excellent names producing this album (see below)
HOLLYWOOD, CALIFORNIA (2 June 2005)?Sun's second single released in the UK, "Without Love" has conquered the dance charts, reaching Number #1 on ?Music Week's Upfront Club Top 40' Dance Chart and proving yet again the continual international success of "Without Love" and Sun. "Music Week" Magazine is Europe's industry standard for reporting music much the way "Billboard" Magazine in the United States is considered the ultimate resource. Sun and her #1 single shares the charts this week with singles from such notable artists as Mariah Carey, Ashanti, Kelly Clarkson, Kelly Osborne and Nelly. "Without Love" also hit #2 on "Music Week's Commercial Pop Club Chart" and #2 on "DMC" Magazine's Dance Club Chart as well.
"Without Love" which was produced by Jimmy Harry, who has worked with international pop superstars like Britney Spears and Kylie Minogue, and remixed by notable remixers such as Mike Rizzo, Tony Moran, Eric Kupper, and Peter Presta, "Without Love" previously went Number #1 on the US "Billboard Magazine Dance Club Chart" back in December 2004 and sustained itself in the Top 25 "Billboard" Dance Radio Charts for over four astonishing months. For the UK release of "Without Love," Bimbo Jones, Motiv8, and Steve Solasso were brought in to provide additional remixes.
Sun's next follow-up single will be "Ends of the Earth," which will be released in the USA this summer. Famed producers, The Underdogs, invited Sun to record with them in their studio when Sun was in Los Angeles in September 2004 and after only two days of studio time, "Ends of the Earth" was created.
posted by Threez at 11:34 PM
40 Comments:
You have been Tomorrowed.
http://tomorrow.sg/archives/2005/06/27/why_arent_they_talking_about_ho_.html
10:49 AM
linked to u via tommorrow. agreed wif everything u said except that our dear roadside hip store(aka 77th street) and just about every pasar malam store has ruined the von dutch name so to be associated with it is no longer hip. actually quite unglam,haha...
12:54 PM
Well, I can't say if what she's doing is right, but you just can't argue with success. Sun does deserve credit for how she's broken into the US market.
2:25 PM
Maybe it has something to do with the fact that she ain't a pastor and yet pple like u still go around touting her as one? She started the controversy. Daniel she is not.
BTW what's with the dance chart thingy? Can she even dance?
3:08 PM
Why're you so concerned over whether she calls herself a pastor or not.
I'm not a pastor. But I'm going to call myself a pastor for today. Oh, so are you going to hate me and start posting stuff about me all over the net and media and curse my children and call me a slut?
What's the problem with everyone? If no one starts to hate her, no one will hate her. But someone started this whole folly of a "Hate-Sun" wave and everyone, with their herd instinct, felt the strong impulse to join in and ride on it. It's sooooo EEEWWWLLL to me to join the crowd so easily without even considering your own stand for a moment!
5:43 PM
Perhaps the idea of a religious leader being a secularist just rubs people the wrong way?
I have to admit that I fall into that camp. It's disturbing when someone who doesn't shepherd a herd uses the name pastor.
Yaevlejunce, you can say that you are a pastor but whether people believe you or not will alter their reaction. If people follow you because you take on the role of authority and are betrayed when you are revealed to be otherwise, then prepare to be hung out to dry.
10:05 PM
well said!
i applaud you.
11:15 PM
Wah, can open, worms everywhere!
Packrat, a pastor is a rank in a church. So you can be a pastor but not necessarily a preacher. This may not be the case for "traditional" churches but check with FCBC for example.
For Sun, she IS a pastor (ie a shepherd as you defined it). She has grown up from the ranks of member to cell group leader to zone leader, to pastor. Her work in counselling is not sexy so the press don't bother to report that. That she sent the first foreign relief team into Bandar Acheh was not reported because the press didn't bother to find out that the CEO of the City Harvest Community Services Association is Ho Yeow Sun. Long after other foreign aid teams stopped going into Indonesia, CHCSA were still sending teams FOUR MONTHS after the tsunami. People don't know the truth about her because the press have reported everything but.
I don't have to stand in her defence but I would like to point out that many of the comments made here really do reflect the power of the press and the danger of the press abused — because it's obvious many of you believe what you read.
Well, don't. Question. Find out. Take on the role of active citizenry. Stand for the Truth. Sun is just one topic — there are many more misrepresented topics every day in the papers and magazines.
Yaevelejunce -- I see your point but you can't just call yourself a pastor, but I would like to call you a pastry because you are SWEET ; )
11:55 PM
For all the 'misrepresentation' and 'biased' press in Singapore, there are more important and pressing issues that require fair reporting, than the life of a pop star.
No one really cares.
12:14 AM
i think its not good to be promoting religion. hence better not to give her publicity. religion should not be promoted like a commercial product. thats what i feel.
1:23 AM
The question of press bias is one that I've taken into consideration actually...and yes, she still rubs me the wrong way. Pastoring in the traditional sense really requires one to be around. The life of a popstar however really doesn't allow that much. So how does one juggle that?
Her retraction of her role in the church really cemented it for me. I'm fine that she's Christian and making it big. I've got a problem accepting that she could be a pastor and a popstar at the same time. I don't doubt that she's an active person in terms of charity work and all that...but a pastor's quite different from a counselor, aid worker or worship leader.
8:18 AM
Okay, this is the true story of what actually happened behind the "I Am Not a Pastor" TODAY newspaper story, approved by long-time newspaper legend Balji, who has now left.
(Actually this is in Wikipedia!)
At the time, Sun had just come back from Taiwan. In Taiwan (and actually now that I read all these posts it seems in Singapore too) when you are not a preacher they do not call you pastor. So in Taiwan, they call Sun Counsellor-Singer, because that is her area of ministry.
When she came back, TODAY newspaper interviewed her on the phone and asked her how come Taiwan press don't call her Pastor anymore. She explained the above. As far as her Singapore congregation was concerned, she was still their pastor by rank and also because she spiritually guides a good number of them.
Where it should have read "They call me Counsellor-singer instead" in the headline, which you must agree is far from eye-catching, TODAY ran what they ran.
From a press point of view, TODAY did it to sell the paper. When you're of the world, you follow the world's rules. I followed them when I was a young, not-yet-Christian reporter also.
This was a classic "Let's Take It Out Of Context for the juicy quote" scenario. And that's not what she said.
Reportedly, some time later when Sun and her husband met Balji at an awards ceremony he apologised and said it wasn't him who ran the story. I've heard many good things about Balji and many stinkers,but I think this is just plain cowardly. As a former editor myself, you take the flak whether or not you personally wrote and edited the story. It was published while you were Editor, sorry, tag you're It.
In the end, I'm not talking about Sun so much as a pastor. I'm talking about her as a singer and a role model and success story that the press could give more attention to. As someone wrote earlier, you can't argue with success.
What I still can't understand is, why do we have a SINGAPOREAN who is making waves overseas and we are not celebrating her? Don't make me quote the "prophet not welcome in his own town" quote -- oops, too late.
8:51 AM
As u yourself have noted, it is not only in Taiwan but in Singapore (sans the charismatics with their liberal interpretations)that the label "pastor" connotes a certain role in the church. But that's not the point as it is always difficult to reach a consensus in religious matters. The point here is that she herself recanted her earlier claim that she is a pastor and that disgusted many.
If u or Wikipedia are to be believed, she was simply quoted out of context. But if that was the case, one would expect her to sue (or threaten to sue) the press or at least write in to both the Taiwan n Spore press to straighten the record that she was indeed a pastor as far as she was concerned. Did she do that?
11:49 AM
I'll choose not to comment on the issue of pastoral image. But as far as the angle of ignored Singaporean artiste goes, she is far from the first. Perhaps the most famous is Margaret Leng Tan, who is literally known around the world for her piano recitals and is considered the expert in John Cage's works. But how many people have even heard of her, let alone know what her works mean?
12:21 PM
I think people like those here who're "disturbed" (perhaps they're already developing rashes by now) by the fact that Sun's a pastor are just preoccupied with that fact.
There's so so so much more to Sun Ho than the fact that she's a pastor. A pastor is a person who's gone through Theological Seminary and have been accepted by a church to be a pastor. And that's what she's been. So what's wrong with calling her a pastor.
And are you trying to say that a pastor cannot do what she has done? A pastor is supposed to preach in church ALL THE DAYS OF HER LIFE and NEVER wear clothes that people on the streets can? A pastor, then, would be a person I'd pity. No life. But no, a pastor can do anything anyone else can (apart from sin, of course. and wearing skimpy dresses sponsered by someone is not sin).
The Bible says that all things are PERMISSIBLE, though not all things are constructive or beneficial. In other words, theologically, there's absolutly nothing wrong with whatever she's doing or has done.
In short, I'm just convinced that people jump at her simple because she's a pastor can they just can't accept the fact that a pastor can take the media so well - much better than people who've been in te media EONS longer than her.
12:51 PM
Sorry, my last paragraph should'be been:
In short, I'm just convinced that people jump at her simply because she's a pastor and they just can't accept the fact that a pastor can take the media so well - much better than people who've been in the media EONS longer than her.
12:53 PM
And regarding people who've a problem with her being a pastor AND a popstar, are you saying that you have a problem with the senior pastor of FCBC, Apostle Lawrence Khong?
He's the head of FCBC and yet he's in the media as a magician who spreads the Gospel through his production, the Magic of Love.
Aparantly, he's just returned from a long tour in the US and he was recieved really well over there. The media in the US loved him and the cast had standing ovations in practically every show.
He's the head pastor and yet he's into the media as well. And yet, just like Sun, I think both of them are handling both their responsibilities very well. FCBC's now having a higher baptism rate than ever and CHC's now expanded until they need a new church site (they already have that palace-like Guggenheim-walled church in Jurong!). So I see no reason why Sun and Khong should be accused in any way for neglecting their duties as PASTORS.
1:00 PM
Wimps who cannot handle much in life should not assume that others cannot too.
1:02 PM
Re Anonymous' comment on whether Sun sued/complained about TODAY's unethical reporting, the answer is yes. The church called for an apology to be issued, and a formal letter of complaint was sent. Reportedly the writer and subeditor of that particular story challenged CHC to complain, and threatened to run an even more scandal-ridden piece the following day. Neither an apology nor CHC's letter was printed.
9:41 PM
so many comments. she did well. she deserves to be praised. i know my teacher friends would reward Sun with stars on her report card if she has one.(mind you, even JC kids still ask for little stars to be rewarded on their assignments)
isn't that simple?
i think i want to go overseas, maybe someone might discover me too. here, when you are excellent at what you do and if it fits the pages, they will report it. cheers to that! but i am afraid the reports are usually nothing much to brag about. on occasions, i wish i wasn't interviewed. i have been misquoted many times. so threez, i totally know what you mean when you were glad that the press did not give Sun due credit. its just depressing when they come up with a lousy report.
i remember how my internship supervisior made a comment when he found out that i was a christian. "so you this sunday go church to hallelujah?" that made me wonder why i've never heard anyone said " yo ah bang go sembahyang? or even "ah beng kee bio pai sin ah!" don't you just feel special that being a christian make people talk more about you?
"pastor cannot do this, cannot do that!" i bet many out there think that. yup! maybe that might have been right during the times when the policemen wore shorts and monks did not drive mercedes.
so i say, give Sun the stars! her husband probably promise her the moon already.
12:45 AM
re threez' reply that CHC sent a letter of complaint: disregarding for a moment that it is odd that CHC sent the letter and not Sun herself (when the matter concerned her personally), are u telling us that they (CHC or Sun) left the matter at that even though they felt so badly aggrieved? And no clarification with the Taiwnese media?
The point here is that if there is something she could have done (given her resources and propensity to sue) and she did NOT do it to set the record straight, why shld she or her supporters expect anyone to believe her now after the issue has died down ages ago? So many claims and accusations u make now should have been raised by Sun at the material time so that those u now accuse could have a chance to give their point of view. No?
12:08 PM
I cannot possibly profess to know why Sun did not choose to sue. My guess is that she as a pastor and a Christian may not react the way the world expects her to react. However, I DO know that action was taken to redress the situation civilly and was rejected by the paper.
Anyway, the issue is not whether or not she is a pastor, is called one, denied that she is one, which she did not do. The issue is that she is talented and deserves due credit.
12:22 PM
Precisely, Threez.
Take a look at American popstars. Britney Spears, for a common example, lives such a promiscuos lifestyle!
Yet because she is talented, she is still famous and popular. People like her for her talent.
But look at you Singaporeans. Sun's so talented and yet, simple because of LITTLE things that do not matter at all (I mean, how is whether she's a pastor or not and whether she wears a dress or walk around naked got to do with you that you people have to be so "disturbed"), people HATE her and try their best to bury her beneath everything.
It's plain folly.
6:46 PM
I have to agree with packrat that religious leader working as a popstar just doesn't sit well with me. Although, I have to agree with you on the point that her success warrants more publicity than she gets now.
Lots of questions bug me about it. You guys certainly know more than me, so maybe can help me reconcile these issues.
I look at Sun Ho as a religious leader and someone devoted to charity. She is someone that spreads good teachings of religion and also gives counselling to church members.
- Why is she a dance music star and not a gospel singer? There's lots of money in the gospel music industry as well - look at hillsong, or even jars of clay for that matter. Why is a religious leader choosing not to spread the good teachings using her obvious talents? Why does she distance herself from religion in her music?
- I admit this might be a completely "me thing" and everybody might disagree but I have trouble when someone who is says they devoted to charity is extravagant. It's like why i won't give to NKF because all their top brass is driving around in huge luxury cars. Not saying that she needs to live like a pauper, but jsut that she doesn't need armani and prada. Can feed more children in Aceh if she just wore FCUK and used a Guess handbag?
Add on to that, the fact that some people think that the church collections in part go to supporting her - as in the church pays its pastors and church income is derived from its congregation. I do not believe this to be true but even entertaining the possibility that a multi-millionaire devoted to charity might be getting part of her salary paid by grandmas on pention.... bugs me. I mean, why does CHC even have a collection? Surely she has the money to be CHC's Roman Abramovich.
I feel that there might be others out there like me , who are uncomfortable with a pastor popstar in the same way some are uncomfortable with an extravagant charity organisation.
It makes me think her success overseas is in part due to the fact they do not know she is a pastor. I think the fact that she is one changes a whole lot. What do you think?
12:50 AM
Yaevlejunce: "You Singaporeans"? Really?
Sun is a celebrity and the raison d'etre of "celebrity" is a combination of both media and the masses (Although the media does affect the perception of the masses and vice versa). Whether or not the she's been slammed for being a pastor/popstar really doesn't affect her celebrity status, it affects the image. And the two are very separate when talking about celebrity.
Popularity is dependent on how much people talk about a star and I guess that Sun's had less than a fair share of her day in the sun (all pun intended). Yes, I guess she is talented (not that I've heard any of her songs) and yes, I think that she's made it big. Perhaps her non-recognition comes from the fact that she's so closely tied to a certain faction of the Singaporean community that there's a certain exclusivity to her stardom that doesn't appeal to the general public.
I don't think there's a huge conspiracy that surrounds the Sun factor simply because being a pastor/popstar doesn't allow you to be inclusive of everyone. It's a dichotomy that doesn't fit, really. If you think about the demographic that a popstar is trying to appeal to, you'd be thinking about a demographic that doesn't like figures of authority, especially a pastor to boot.
Maybe she wasn't marketed well here in Singapore. Maybe the media doesn't like her because her busy schedule doesn't let her flirt with the media. Whatever it is, the balance between popstar and pastor obviously hasn't been achieved yet.
I would argue that being a christian in a secular world means that you have to forgo one for the other. Sun walks that fine line between christianity and secularism. That's for her to figure out really. If she can do it, more power to her. I just question those who want both.
To answer Yaevlejunce's absolutist stand on pastors having a pitiful life? Well, yes and no. It's a hard life being a pastor. It's a life of discipline and it is a heavy cross to bear. To have an entire congregation watching your every move because you are an ambassador for God? To have to live up to the high standards of the bible? To have to follow the footsteps of Christ? Not hard? Then again, for some, it's the easiest thing in the world.
Finally: Spin. Everyone has spin doctors.
8:20 AM
Duckshoe,
Apparantly, Sun DOES spread the gospel through her concerts. In Taiwan, I recall, a couple of hundreds or even thousands of people gave their lives to Christ.
Apparantly, all her "pop" songs do have Christian elements in them. They all revolve around love - God's love. That's why you don't hear "kiss" and "bed" and all those words that refer to sexual relations cos the love in her songs is GOD'S love.
And just WHAT is wrong with her wearing Prada and FCUK? It's her personal choice, for goodness sake! Are you trying to say that people in the community services industry CANNOT wear what they like? Gosh, you actually want to interfere with this sort of things in HER life! Tsk, tsk...
Packrat,
If you read properly, I was comparing the attitute and response of Singaporeans with the Americans.
American popstars who're MUCH worse than Sun are almost never condemned. They're talents are always recognise no matter what they do.
But look at "YOU SINGAPOREANS". All Sun did was wear an Armani dress that, to me, was perfectly decent (I mean, you see so many females wearing clothes worse than that at Orchard too. Why don't you go scold them and tell them their sluts?). And the response? Oh, she's a bitch and she doesn't deserve this and that. And LET'S IGNORE ALL HER ACCOMPLISHMENTS.
Totally revolting.
And if you know the Bible well (Which you obviously do not, judging from your words.), you'll know that God treasures what we treasure as well. i.e., he NEVER lets His children suffer or live a life "pitifully" simply because they choose to serve Him. It's true that being a pastor comes with great responsibility, but does not the Bible say "judge not so that you, too, will not be judged"?
It's amazing what some Christians can do - they quote one verse and yet ignore the rest.
Out of the mouth canNOT come both curses and blessings. And she's a pator. In other words, she's an authority over us.
Hebrews 13:17 says "Obey your leaders and submit to their authority. They keep watch over you as men who must give an account. Obey them so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no advantage to you."
Heard that? "OBEY THEM SO THAT THEIR WORK WILL BE A JOY, NOT A BURDEN, FOR THAT WOULD BE OF NO ADVANTAGE TO YOU.
So Christians opposing Sun, I seriously suggest you repent if you know what's good for you.
11:01 AM
wow! thousands in converted in one concert! That must be some sort of record. What a potent weapon? If I was osama, it'd be her house first.
And thanks for pointing out the part where her songs are about God's love. I completely missed that. How silly of me. had tunnel vision expecting songs that say "God be merciful to me" like Jars of Clay.
The sneaky Sun ho was a little more subtle disguising her divine message. In her billboard hit "without love" she sings:
"Baby now that I can barely breathe and I wouldn’t want to
Baby I know that if I had a choice I wouldn’t live without you"
Only now do I see that she was talking about God! gosh! I feel so foolish.
Also feel silly for not having done my research prior. I popped over to her official website www.heyaosun.com and the place continues to be subtle. So subtle that after half hour I gave up looking for any mention of religion on it. Doesn't even have the word pastor under the heading occupation/profession. Sneaky!
By contrast www.jarsofclay.com proclaims out loud. So untacful no? Click on their biography and the first sentence is "how can we adequately express our dependence on God"
But then, they aren't pastors who convert thousands in one concert. What do they know about strategy huh?
on a diff note, think you may have missed my second point which is about extravagance on the part of those who preach charity. I gave the example of NKF. But let me make up a fictional one.
Say this church started refurbishing their building and as part of their renovations imported really expensive leather sofas from Italy and imported top grade granite for the floors. Sure it's good to make the house of God beautiful, but would the people really noticed if you used granite imported from malaysia and chairs bought from Ikea? then used the excess money to charity?
Now I guess the point of contention is: is armani and prada considered extravagant? cos if it isn't then this whole argument falls apart. I'll give you that.
5:38 PM
Just because Jugs of Clay does things THISAWAY, does not mean that every evagalist have to go THATAWAY with it.
God is not communist. He doesn't want all of us to go around doing things the same way.
Duck-whatever, I believe you are a Christian. Or at least have some knowledge on Christian theology.
So then, do you not know - or are you conviniently ignoring? - that when Solomon built the Temple of the LORD, he use ONLY the finest of fine materials. Gold for the place where BEST gold is mined, woor ONLY from wher the BEST wood is felled and got the BEST craftsmen to build the Temple.
He did not use gold that "looked" like the finest. Nor wood that "resembled" the best. He knew that he was pleasing God. Not mere mortal BLIND men like you give me the impression of.
That's because it's the HOUSE OF GOD, for goodness' sake, that we're talking about here. It's almost a form of worship the way we built it.
And why are you ignoring my Bible quotations? Found nothing wrong with them? Why don't you challange the word of God? Use the Bible to prove that you're right.
I have.
Luke 6:37a says "DO NOT judge,or you too will be judged".
God's command to you: DO NOT JUDGE.
Want to go against God's word? By all means. You have been warned.
Luke 6:37b says "Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned."
JESUS HIMSELF tells you NOT to condemn. You want to go against His words? As you wish.
Hebrews 13:17 says "17Obey your leaders and submit to their authority. They keep watch over you as men who must give an account. Obey them so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no advantage to you."
Sun's a pastor; a religious leader. But are you submitting? Are you obeying? MORE IMPORTANTLY, ARE YOU HELPING TO MAKE HER WORK A JOY? Or burden?
Well, the choice is up to you. To follow and obey what the Word of God says, or to go with your own understanding...
10:34 PM
I have all the while been trying to make 2 points.
1. When it comes down to it, as an artist , Sun Ho is indistinguishable from a non-christian/non pastor artist. Unlike DC Talk, Plus One, Jars of Clay or Live - none of which are people of any authority in any church yet you can immediately tell they are Christian artists.
2. I am uncomfortable with people/ establishments that are devoted to charity while being extravagant. i.e. NKF which pays its directors millions.
12:24 AM
Good morning everyone.
hmm, as the wrestling match continues I would like to just point out one thing, which I clarified with a CHC senior staff today.
City Harvest Church is audited yearly by the body that regulates religious organisations (sorry I will find out the exact body name in the near future and post it).
The pastor's pay is definitely not in the millions, and one strict rule the church exercises is that all other activities have its own P&L, eg the Community Services Arm has its own profit and loss.
On top of that, if you read today's papers, Sun is also a businesswoman. She funds her projects out of pocket through her own income outside of church. Even giving to our fundraising efforts was out of her personal accounts, not the church's.
I do not believe that their pay from the church is out of this world. On top of that, I believe the pastors tithe and give offerings as much as any member of the congregation, so it's not like "hahaha! these people are giving me money!"
We're mostly Christians embroiled in this discussion. Let's let the fruit of the church be our marker for judging whether or not City Harvest Church and Ho Yeow Sun are of God. I believe they are. They are not a fly by night church, having been around nearly 20 years. They have great fruit (which they do not brag about) to show for the expansion of God's kingdom in Singapore and many other countries. Sun has been blessed by God, obviously, and continues to bless others financially as well as with her music.
As for the question: why doesn't she be a Gospel singer instead of a secular singer. She IS a gospel singer (new P&W album coming out -- gosh they should hire me to be marketing manager hor). She made the crossover to pop/dance because Jesus said we are to be IN the world, to be a LIGHT in the world and SALT to the earth. The world is satan's playground. As a Christian you and I are sent out to this playground to plunder hell to populate Heaven. What have you done lately to accomplish that? I know what Sun has done.
Anyway what I wanted to say also is that it's so CHUN that right after I say media neow talk about her there is a full page story on her new store Skin Couture!
I should eat my words but I'm laughing too hard.
12:36 AM
Yaevlejunce: Judge not lest ye be judged? Shyeah. Cast the first stone will you?
Puhleaze, I wasn't even talking about judging Sun and her behaviour. And really? Americans are totally uncritical of their popstars? Really? Read the tabloids please. Popstars are judged all the time. Want a link?
http://gofugyourself.typepad.com/ Tell me that American popstars are not judged by their appearance.
I've got absolutely no problem with Sun showing up in an Armani dress...Please don't generalise.
I'm sorry, who exactly appointed Sun as leader over all christians?
God never lets His children suffer? So what did Job do to deserve all that suffering? What did the apostles do to deserve death by terrible means? Which children are you talking about? The bible's full of martyrs that died because their beliefs clashed with that of the world. So, wrong on that count too.
God's not communist. Neither is He facist. Why're you acting like you are then? I mean "Christians opposing Sun" have to repent? Wow. Where in the bible really do you find the command "thou shalt not oppose thy christian popstars?" If you're talking about people in CHC going against her, then question the fact that pastors are human vessels carrying out the will of the divine.
Also, please reread my comment regarding popstars and the media. I'm not too sure that you understand it. Popstars/Celebrities live and die by the media. Not by popular opinion. The bible states that you cannot serve two masters. Which did Sun choose? I think she chose well.
Re: your bible quotations: I don't think anyone had anything to refute because you did such a good job of doing that yourself:
Judge, lest ye be judged? Check.
Do not condemn? Check.
Obey your leaders? Check the context please.
You use Solomon as an example. Did he not end up a broken man despite his wisdom? Was the temple not destroyed? Have you addressed the concept that we're talking about imported granite while people are starving all over the world? Question that why don't you? Quit being a sheep.
Yes, there is a lot of spinning done by the media and we're suckers if we believe everything put out there by it, but if anyone listens to everything said by the church, they're just the same.
That's how crusades happen.
8:20 AM
Packrat:
You said "Puhleaze, I wasn't even talking about judging Sun and her behaviour."
REALLY? Then what're you talking about here?
When I said American popstars are not condemned, I was doing it in comparison with the way Sun is being condemned. At least the Americans care more about the talents than the dresses.
Superficial!
You've got absolutely no problem with Sun showing up in an Armani dress? Then what's your problem with her? Breathing too often? Existing? Giving birth?
You know who appointed Sun as leader over us? Well, God did. Sun is a pastor (by saying pastor, I mean somebody who has gone through theological seminary and is certified by a christian church of God to be qualified as a pastor). And pastors ARE spiritual leaders over us.
Of course, it's free for you to debate about the reasonability of that, but well, we'll all know what God's take on that will be when we ascend to heaven - afterall, we all know Who put Sun up there as a pastor.
It's obvious that you failed to read what I said properly - either that or you're just trying to twist my words.
I said this:
"He NEVER lets His children suffer or live a life "pitifully" simply because they choose to serve Him."
in response to this:
"It's a hard life being a pastor. It's a life of discipline and it is a heavy cross to bear."
Note that I said that God never lets His children suffer SIMPLY (ok? The word's SIMPLY) because they choose to serve Him.
That was in response to your claim which, on the other hand, was a false assumption.
"It IS a hard life being a pastor. It IS a life of discipline and it IS a heavy cross to bear."
All I was saying is that that was pure generalisation and God does not let is happen ALL THE TIME to ALL servants of Him. Christians would all be a very pitiful lot, then, since ALL of us were called to be His servants.
Indeed, there is no verse in the Bible that goes "thou shalt not oppose thy christian popstars", but there ARE the following verses that show that your attitude and words are unbecoming of a TRUE Christian (if you are a nametag Christian or a false one, then I'm sorry to let you hear all these):
Col 3:8 says "But now you must rid yourselves of such things as these: ... slander ... from your lips.". But you are slandering Sun unceasingly.
1 Pet 4:11a: "If anyone speaks, he should do it as one speaking the very words of God.". Would God say such things of HIS OWN DAUGHTER?
Gal 5:14: "The entire law is summed up in a single command: "Love your neighbour as yourself."". If you can't even love your sister-in-Christ, HOW ARE YOU GOING TO OBEY THE LAW OF GOD?
2 TIM 3:12: "YES, AND ALL WHO DESIRE TO LIVE GODLY IN CHRIST JESUS WILL SUFFER PERSECUTION.". Now, this verse shows why you are speaking of her in this manner - you are speaking on behalf of the Devil!
1 John 3:10-15: "This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother. This is the message you heard from the beginning: We should love one another. Do not be like Cain, who belonged to the evil one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his own actions were evil and his brother's were righteous. Do not be surprised, my brothers, if the world hates you. We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love our brothers. Anyone who does not love remains in death. Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life in him."
1 John 4:20: "If anyone says, "I love God," yet hates his brother, he is a liar. For anyone who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God, whom he has not seen." Liar. If you love Sun, you wouldn't be defaming her. LIAR!
1 Sam 16:7b: "The LORD does not look at the things man looks at. Man looks at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart." See? You are obsessed with the outward - but God's not like you. He knows the condition of Sun's heart.
1 John 4:11: "Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ouhgt to love one another." Where's the love in you???
Still not feeling any remorse? Well, then I seriously pray that the wisdom of God will enlighten you for you seriously are in need of it.
Whether I judge and condemn or not has nothing to do with you just like whether you judge and condemn or not has nothing to do with me. But aren't you judging and condemning her? I'm not saying that she's right or that you're wrong - I'm merely pointing out the Bible's stand on this.
Solomon DID die a broken man and the Temple did get torn down.
Oh, so you know about that?! Amazing. Then why don't you know the following fact?: The Temple that Solomon built WAS FILLED WITH THE SPIRIT AND PRESENSE OF GOD. Why? Because God was pleased with the Temple. He accepted it as His dwelling place among man. It was only torn down CENTURIES (in fact, around a millenia) later after the people of Israel went from bad to worse, but that's not the point!
The point is that God has proven that he's not against lavishing unto Him.
How about the prostitute that broke the EXPENSIVE jar of perfume and poured it onto Jesus' feet?
The perfume was worth MORE than a years' wage! And she simply poured it out on his feet and lavished it on Jesus.
AND JUDAS ISCARIOT THE TRAITOR SAID WHAT YOU SAID in John 4:12-6: "Why wasn't this perfume sold and the money given to the poor?".
But Jesus replied, "Why are you bothering this woman? She has done a beautiful thing to me."
So there. You speak just like Judas whom Jesus said was of the devil and who was better of not being born.
How much money would be saved if CHC imported cheap granite? Myopic! Isn't it more important to give God the glory due to Him instead?
10:44 AM
Yaevlejunce: This will be the last comment I post regarding this because obviously, you're more interested in judging us a whole lot more than you're interested in actually having a decent argument here. So, here goes:
"21 Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me."
~ Take up the cross. Why take up the cross I wonder? Because the cross is a hard burden. God did not promise us an easy life being a christian. In fact, he promises the life that is hard. That is horrible and might even lead to certain death. Why? Because the world is at odds with God. Anyone who tells you that you can be prosperous and a christian at the same time is a liar. God calls us to be like Christ. When's the last time you read about his Mercedes?
When in the new testament has there been a church so lavishly built as the temples of the old testament? If all the examples you can give me are from there, then shouldn't we also be stoned for wearing wool that is mixed with linen? Or should I bring my kid to the city gates to stone him if he's disobedient?
Why are you so certain that we're all going to hell because we don't like Ho Yeow Sun? And I'm Judas just because I don't like her very much? Shyeah. Like I said, throw the first stone.
Meanwhile, I'm just going to come out and say that I forgive you for all your judgements on me and everyone else here. And that my Jesus forgives your jesus.
I'd like to apologize to Threez that this blog post has gotten way out of control. It tends to with controversial issues and it's good when a topic opens so much discussion. Don't worry about this spiraling out of control (as it always does)...and don't fret the moderation either. If we all did that, we'd have little time for our real lives. :)
11:43 AM
Woah there, and this will be my last comment also.
Nowhere in the Bible does it say that Jesus was poor! He might have been born in a stable to fulfil Scripture and He most certainly didn't have a Mercedes but he wasn't abjectly poor or He would not have been able to do the ministry that He did. Jesus' ministry was in part funded by business women and he had a treasurer (Judas Iscariot), and we all know poor men don't have treasurers. Jesus was never in lack, and that should be the sign of a true Christian, for God is our Provider.
That Christians should be poor because Jesus was supposedly poor is a lie of the Devil, that is sadly widely believed by Christians and Catholics the world over. It has been used effectively to stop the work of the kingdom of God.
Like I said, look at the fruit. The richest churches today are the ones that are making the most headway in bringing the Gospel to the ends of the earth. Look at Benny Hinn's Ministry -- he has touched millions of people in India, a country hostile to the Gospel. Yes, many smaller (poorer) churches may send mission teams too, but they will not have the same fruit as Benny Hinn. Not to put down any other missions, because God knows where the need is and will send his children to even nooks and crannies to save souls.
I know from first hand experience how hard it is for traditional Christians and Catholics who have loved Jesus with their hearts to accept these seemingly controversial teachings. However, God's will is NOT for us to suffer, it is NOT for us to be poor, it is NOT for us to be poverty minded. Because if you are wracked with financial poverty, chances are you'll be too busy fighting your own fires to do the work of God effectively.
We don't have a mean, stingy God. We have a God of the impossible: Jehovah Jireh, El Shaddai, Elohim, Jehovah Rapha. We have a mighty, awesome God who wants us to bring the kingdom of Heaven to earth -- and there is no lack in Heaven!
Heroes of the Bible have all been rich:
* Abraham was the richest man in his time and place
* Even in a famine Isaac was blessed 100fold
* David was a king and his son Solomon was the richest king that ever lived
* Joseph was the Pharoah's 2nd in charge -- PM's pay is quite good, you know.
* Job might have had everything taken from him but by the time his testing was over, God restored him many many times over by the end of his ordeal.
But YES there is danger in riches as Jesus warned. If you can't let it go, like the rich young man, then that's your treasure not God. "Where your treasure is, there your heart is also." Another big lie that trad churches routinely repeat is "Money is the root of all evil." Money has no emotional value. It is just there, an arbitrary entity. But "THE LOVE OF MONEY is the root of all evil." True. If you love money more than God then all of you know what happens. You cannot serve both God and money. But you can use money to serve God. The more money you have the more widely and effectively you can serve God.
What's the point of going up to a poor man and saying "God bless you, man" and then walk away? GIVE HIM SOME MONEY! He needs it! That's what you're supposed to do with the money God gives you.
I think very importantly we must realise that once we are baptised and born again in Christ, we are BAPTISED INTO HIS DEATH (Roman 6:4). The death of our fleshly self is very important: it means we no longer can be tempted. We are dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord!
This means that hording of wealth is not going to be a stumbling block. Freely receive, freely give. Earn a lot of money so you can give a lot away to help build churches, fund missions, build shelters, print Bibles ... you can do more good with money than without.
God didn't say we need to be poor or not buy any new clothes for 10 years to show we're a good Christian. Jesus says that we must seek first the kingdom of God, and the rest will be added unto us. But He didn't say REJECT the rest that are added unto us.
If as Christians we continue to preach the poverty gospel, the world is NEVER going to be interested in becoming a Christian. The world looks at outward things. They may think Mother Teresa was great, but very very few are going to want to live like her. (okay we won't go into the accusations that she took money for herself -- see, no saint is spared from the lies of the devil!)
Would the world follow someone who looks and smells bad? I think not. The world looks to people who reflect the greatness of our God. The world says wow to a church that is beautiful and an architectural wonder and it is the house of God, praise the Lord! Why should they say wow at the Taj Mahal and not at City Harvest Church? If CHC wants to create a beautiful church for the Lord, it's not just the leaders that want it but the congregation as well. And God has blessed them greatly in that house. I hear they are going to expand again. They've grown to 18,000+ already.
So Jesus answered and said, "Assuredly I say to you, there is no one who has left house or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My sake and the gospel's, who shall not receive a hundredfold now in this time --houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and lands, with persecutions -- and in the age to come, eternal life. But many who are first will be last, and the last first." Mark 10:29-31
In the end, everything we have belongs to God, our families, our hearts, our minds, our wills, so what's a small thing like money? But if we choose to be poor then we are like the servant who was given one mina and buried it instead of investing it, and when the Master came home, he was done for. To him who is given much, much is expected.
God is not mocked, what a man sows he will reap. If indeed leaders of churches choose to horde wealth for personal gain, don't you believe our God who is Holy will not deal with it justly?
1:25 PM
Since everyone's saying their last words on this post, I shall too.
It all boils down to the word "love".
Jesus said that the whole law can be compressed into one single commandment, and that is to love your neighbour as yourself.
In short, we are to love everyone around us. A lawyer once tested Jesus and asked him "who is my neightbour" and Jesus told him the parable of the Good Samaritian. The fallen Jew was the Good Samaritian's neighbour. How much more is Sun to be loved by us when she's not only our neighbour but sister-in-Christ and fellow child of God!
All churches are part of one body - the body of Christ. How, then, can the hand hit the eye and hope to prosper?
In my previous posts, I've already laid out to everyone reading that Sun, whatever she does, still does not deserve any of the gossip/insult/curses/defamation/hate/displeasure/ect from the Singapore community.
And for the Christian community who follows the ways of the unbelievers to hate her instead of guiding them to love, judgement is for the LORD to give unto you. I will not condemn, but I will say this: The LORD has spoken to us through the Bible and those who have heard His voice and yet still stand on to continue in sin, will have only death and punishment ahead for them for nothing good is in the way of the foolish.
4:11 PM
Money is a very good servant but poor master. Let's learn to love people and use money... Amen?
10:54 PM
though reading all these opinions from you people, i am still proud to say that i am a CityHarvester. we don't live on gossips, rumours, or even Sun's expansion of her music industry. we live on God. personally, i don't buy her albums nor listen to her songs. and if you think you're great, set up a church that have close to 30,000 congregation, who are on fire for God, HAPPY people who carries the gospel to wherever they go. and not just CONVERTS. people, wake up.
1:44 PM
I grew up in CHC. I was 14-19, looking for truth, and everything. I was as devoted as can be. Almost a slave to this love. I loved my church and loved God even more. I was really happy because I found God... or God found me.
However, I never liked Pastor Sun. A child, me, who knew nothing, never took a liking towards her. Period. I was angry at myself for feeling like this towards the wife of my pastor whom I loved dearly. 10 years have passed. I am an adult now, I found out I was never wrong even as a child. I knew deep within my heart that the something bothering me about Pastor Sun was valid. She's not real. She is not a testimony of God. If there was anything wrong with CHC, she revealed it to me. I discovered her hypocrisy. How she used the church. How it broke my heart when I was slowly learning how things really are actually. My trust broken, my spirit broken. It took me 5 years to heal this pain. My words are inadequate. Which is why I cannot explain what she did or who she really is. You all were not there. You all don't know what really is or is not. Everything about her is superficial and appearance. Since 10 years ago, I never once saw her wear the same outfit. Nothing wrong with flamboyance. She always wanted to be a popstar. A popstar wannabe. Even when leading praise and worship. That to me is the greatest blasphemy to God. My heart was just smashed beyond repair. All the trust and love I tried to put in her was really not worth it. She is just a popstar wannabe in the end whose sincerity for humanitarian work or love for God cannot be heartfelt at all. You can think whatever that I am biased, hater, whatnot. It's my true account. I really don't care that she wanna be a popstar, just don't be a hypocrite.
8:02 AM
i was just searching about the red dress article and i stumbled on this blog.
i personally feel, that it is not our right to cast judgment on others. its her life that people are ripping apart. and i don't think its really fair to this to her. she is human after all and if people are smart enough, they would not just rant whatever they want to hurt the feelings of others.
what gives people the right to judge her? are they God? what makes them say its right or wrong for her to live in such a way?
just because her husband is a pastor and she used to be a mentor to a group of people, doesn't mean she can't do other things.
1:11 PM
If you have a desire to accomplish something, will you go for it? circumstances can stop you from reaching your goals, will you be affected? I really admire Sun's determination.
everyone is given a choice to dream. Everyone is given the choice to make that dream into existence.
Have you done so?
I am still in the process (:
9:47 AM
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